現(xiàn)實(shí)總是與政治家們的理想有所差距，但我認(rèn)為我們可以嘗試著一步步跳出目前歐盟采取的“均勢(shì)”策略。當(dāng)前，美國(guó)及其部分盟友的對(duì)華敵意不斷上升，與此同時(shí)，另一個(gè)以中國(guó)為代表的（新興市場(chǎng)國(guó)家）集團(tuán)正在形成。這兩大集團(tuán)之間的對(duì)立情緒不斷加深，原因在于有人在故意鼓動(dòng)所謂“民主對(duì)專(zhuān)制”“自由市場(chǎng)對(duì)國(guó)有經(jīng)濟(jì)”的對(duì)抗性敘事。實(shí)際上，今天的現(xiàn)實(shí)要復(fù)雜得多，我們需要更加務(wù)實(shí)的解決方案，而不是意識(shí)形態(tài)對(duì)抗。

Reality is, most of the times, different to what we dream as politicians, but my vision would be that we could, step by step, try to put aside this as much as possible -- this kind of balance of power approach, where you have a rising antagonism of US and some countries that follow the US, and then a new to-form bloc with China in the lead, where you have a rising antagonism, artificially fueled by, for instance, putting into the one against the others, the so-called ideal governance of democracies versus autocracies, or free market versus state-run economies. Actually, the reality today is much more complex, needs much more pragmatic, rather than ideologically-driven solutions.

至于中歐合作，我真心希望采取一種更多元化的方式。

And to come to your question, I would really plead for a more pluralistic approach.

我敢肯定，許多國(guó)家更愿意保持中立，而非加入某一陣營(yíng)。我認(rèn)為，中國(guó)的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人已經(jīng)表示對(duì)分享權(quán)力持開(kāi)放態(tài)度，應(yīng)采取多元和多邊主義實(shí)現(xiàn)全球治理；而美國(guó)領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人至少口頭上也說(shuō)過(guò)類(lèi)似的話(huà)。我認(rèn)為這是有利于弱化大國(guó)競(jìng)爭(zhēng)和二元對(duì)立、實(shí)現(xiàn)多元共生的正確方式

I'm sure that there are lots of countries that are preferring to have a nonaligned position than just to join one of the two sides. And I think that Chinese leadership, and also sometimes in wording at least, the American leadership, have phrased positions that are open to share power and to have a kind of multilateral pluralistic approach to world governance, to global governance. I think this is the right way to have a pluralistic and less balance of power approach, less two-sides antagonism approach.

我希望，通過(guò)馮德萊恩與博雷利近期的表態(tài)，歐盟能展示其不會(huì)成為美國(guó)“小跟班”的態(tài)度。誠(chéng)然，就安全問(wèn)題而言，歐盟非常依賴(lài)美國(guó)，此外，歐美之間在價(jià)值觀(guān)和社會(huì)政策方面有許多共識(shí)與共同之處。但是，我們應(yīng)當(dāng)對(duì)其他治理體系與政策持開(kāi)放態(tài)度。因此，談及歐盟立場(chǎng)時(shí)，我認(rèn)為歐盟應(yīng)該發(fā)展戰(zhàn)略自主，成為全球多元治理的一部分。

I hope that the narrative that was put forward by the European Union through the voice of Mrs von der Leyen and Borrell could also tender this to say we will just not be a junior partner of the US, to which we are very loyal in terms of our security needs, of course, and we share lots of things with the US in terms of values and views on society. But let's be open to other systems of governance, other approaches. And so when it comes to position of the EU, let's develop our own position and be part of the pluralistic.

例如，在以G20為基礎(chǔ)的全球治理體系中，巴西、印度、南非、印尼、印度等新興大國(guó)可以在共享治理、共享權(quán)力和共享解決方案方面發(fā)揮非常重要的作用。2024年，巴西將成為G20輪值主席國(guó)，我認(rèn)為這可能是一個(gè)重要的時(shí)刻。

For instance, G20-based global governance, where also upcoming powers like Brazil, India, South Africa, Indonesia, India could play a very important role in sharing governance, in sharing power and in sharing solutions. We will have, one of the next years, I think it's 2024, we have Brazilian leadership, the chairmanship of the G20, I think that's potentially an important moment.

最后一點(diǎn)，我還發(fā)現(xiàn)了一些推動(dòng)治理多元化的重要跡象，金磚國(guó)家成立了新開(kāi)發(fā)銀行，為國(guó)際貿(mào)易和全球市場(chǎng)提供美元之外的貨幣選擇，我認(rèn)為這是一個(gè)好跡象。我認(rèn)為共同治理、共享權(quán)力優(yōu)于集團(tuán)對(duì)抗。

Last element, I see those who are important in order to install a more pluralistic governance. I see it as a good sign that you have now this New Development Bank, that you have other currencies, trying to offer an alternative to world trade and markets to the dollar. So I think sharing governance, shared power is better than this kind of antagonism between two blocs.

記者：您對(duì)中歐關(guān)系與合作未來(lái)有何預(yù)測(cè)？

伊夫·萊特姆：

公平公開(kāi)地說(shuō)，我認(rèn)為我們現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)失去了數(shù)年時(shí)間，現(xiàn)在是時(shí)候采取新的思維方式了。歐盟委員會(huì)已經(jīng)提出了建議，也有一些對(duì)話(huà)在開(kāi)展之中。正像我剛才說(shuō)的，歐盟當(dāng)然應(yīng)該捍衛(wèi)自身利益。外交政策更多的是關(guān)于利益而不是價(jià)值觀(guān)。過(guò)去的成功經(jīng)驗(yàn)告訴我們，我們?cè)诤葱l(wèi)自己利益的同時(shí)，也應(yīng)該對(duì)中國(guó)開(kāi)放，改善貿(mào)易、科研合作和交流。

I think to be fair and open, I think we lost some years now. It is time now to come to a new way of thinking and the European Commission has put proposals on the table. There are some good conversations going on. I would say, referring to an earlier response, that the European Union should, of course, defend its own interests. Foreign policy is much more about interest than about values, but defend its own interests, but should also, like it has been in the past successfully doing, we should be open to China, improve trades, improve scientific research cooperation, exchanges.

我希望一旦我們更好地定義了我們所謂的“安全利益”——我們當(dāng)然必須捍衛(wèi)自己的安全利益，就像中國(guó)、美國(guó)和其他國(guó)家那樣——一旦我們更好定義了“安全利益”，我們就能找到足夠的廣闊的合作空間。

I would hope that once we have better defined what we call our security interests -- fair enough, you have to defend them like China does and like the US and other countries do -- once we have defined them that we find sufficient space, vast space for cooperation.

最后一個(gè)要素，我認(rèn)為一個(gè)國(guó)家不能只看到它的組織機(jī)構(gòu)、它的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人，還要多關(guān)注它的人民，“國(guó)之交在于民相親”。企業(yè)、科學(xué)家、學(xué)生，甚至家庭，旅游業(yè)都可以助力國(guó)家間的交往。我希望中國(guó)和歐盟之間能夠繼續(xù)在這種直接交流方面加大投入。

Last element, I think that a country is more than its structures, institutions and leadership -- it's about people. It's about improving the possibilities for people to exchange, companies, scientists, students, even families, tourism can help. And I would hope that between China and the EU, we continue to invest in these direct exchanges.